Andrew Foxwell: What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the e-commerce influence podcast. My name's Andrew Foxwell. We just had Black Friday and Cyber Monday, so we decided to do a little bonus episode here where I brought together some friends from the industry and got really nerdy about what worked and what didn't work. And if you're a Facebook advertiser or you did some Facebook or Instagram advertising over this period of time, you'll be interested to hear what the readout was from this group of people who collectively probably spent at least a couple million together over just that weekend. I would say maybe even North of that.
So you get a reader from around the world where people were at, what worked, what didn't, why and what people saw. So if you're curious, this is just a little recap episode for you and we're releasing it as a bonus in hopes that it's helpful to you. As always, if you have questions, feel free to hit me up at email@example.com, and if you really like this kind of content, feel free to join our Facebook group, the Facebook and Instagram Pro Ad Buyers Group where we just get into nerdy details and put a lot of this content out there. Hope you have an awesome day.
Welcome everybody. Thank you so much for joining me on this Black Friday Cyber Monday recap in terms of a little postmortem for all of us. Thank you for being here. I'm going to tag all of you in the post so people will know who you are. I think they should know who many of you are since you're heavy contributors in the Facebook and Instagram Pro Ad Buyers Group anyway, which is a little group that turns out is really helpful for a lot of people and just started on a whim in March. That's been really cool actually, and I think it's probably one of the main reasons why Facebook started listening to us or which was the intent of it in the first place. So it's helpful.
Let's go ahead and just get started talking about Black Friday, Cyber Monday thematically, and starting with what people's thoughts are. I know that there's been a lot of discussion about ROAS being lower, but revenues being higher and starting a little bit softer. The person that I've had a lot of discussion with about it thus far has actually been Alex Afterman. I'm going to start with Alex and we'd love your take Alex as it relates to kind of thinking about the overall weekend and, and go from there.
Alex Afterman: Sure. Actually in retrospect now looking back on it, I feel like it actually went quite well, but there were definitely some very rough patches. Last year most of my clients just had a really good Black Friday and just carried it through the weekend. And then Cyber Monday was better than the weekend, but the weekend was still pretty good. This year it felt like the weekend just cratered and that caused a lot of stress and a lot of client stress and me stress and watching your family celebrate the holiday and you're sitting here like, "Why aren't people buying my stuff?"
But it's funny. Cyber Monday went really well. It started off slow, talk about adding to nerve wracking. It started out really slow for me and then the momentum just swelled and a significant portion of the revenue came in late, which makes it really hard to make decisions if you're coming off a soft weekend and you're thinking where do I scale, do I not scale? And then it's soft in the morning as well, you have to take it on faith a little bit.
I actually think that we could have done more revenue yesterday if we had been able to take it on faith, the money's coming and if the weekend had been a little stronger, but it did go really well. It's funny, last year I felt like the weekend stayed strong, but this year I'm sitting here stressing out about why people aren't buying on the weekend. And meanwhile, my wife and my sister and the other room and they're on their phone looking at all these deals. This is Saturday and they have a notepad out and they're literally writing down all these deals they like and it's going to be better on Monday.
Andrew Foxwell: I'm with you. The weekend was really hard and from an emotional standpoint, it's hard because there's a buyer, people are asking you what's going on and then Thursday you always get impatient on Thanksgiving because remember we didn't... Do you remember two years ago when nobody even launched sales on Thanksgiving? I remember like pre "Deirdre, you working with blenders" I remember running there.
It started on Black Friday at 6:00 AM and then it was a novel idea to start on Thanksgiving evening. I was like, "Not a thing." And these are back in the olden days, like four years ago or whatever, but then definitely on Cyber Monday it was a big part. It was like obviously big part of it. I had a client that same thing, they were revenue, they were like in a 3X or something. When I went to bed finally like 10:30 and I woke up and it was an 8.5X and I was like, "What? I would have turned that up so hard." But I did do a lot of auto-bidding too, which we switched off, which I think is a big theme.
And speaking of auto-bidding, I know Dierdra you're always been a fan of auto bidding. You guys definitely, you don't generally do manual bidding and by the way you can't see him, but Terry Whalen is also on the call, colleague and friend who's an awesome guy from Sum Digital. You guys obviously run huge accounts. What's your take Deirdre how it all went?
Deirdre Kelly: I did see a lot of what Alex was saying. So this year, typically we always start on Thanksgiving and that's moved earlier and earlier in the day, the last few years. But this year with Black Friday being so late, we started on Monday and Tuesday for blenders and periorbita, and those early days were just so huge for us and really strong ROAS but it definitely been Aiden to what we saw on other days.
Black Friday was still our biggest day, but it wasn't as big as we expected it to be. And same with Saturday. It was incredibly slow and I use all auto so even though I get up pretty early with the East Coast during these days, the spend got away from me. I just ran off the tracks and it was just really hard to like manually throttle down even though I had immediately like hopped budgets late on Friday night. So it was just interesting.
Then Sunday we gained that efficiency back and then Cyber Monday started really badly so it was like you're not looking back Paul from Pure Vito was doing it like an hourly analysis and I think like a third of our sales for the entire, the sale is still going, this is day nine and 30% of our sales were done between the hours of five and 8:00 PM PST. It's just pretty crazy how concentrated it is in those areas and then you're trying to make budget decisions early in the day for those accounts.
I did take off CBO, I know you've heard me be a proponent of that in the past, but I just didn't have the confidence to leave it on. You just need so much time and data and consistency for that to do well, and with just the shifting offers in the sites and sales, it just needed that manual override to throttle. So I was probably tweaking budgets every three to four hours for that eight or nine days. So it was a lot.
Andrew Foxwell: I'm with you on a lot of that, but my opinion aside, Kurt, what did you see and what do you think? I know you handle a lot of accounts and so you have a really... And a lot of different verticals of all different sizes too, which I think is why it's so awesome that you're part of this discussion. What did you see overall? What are your thoughts?
Kurt Bullock: My experience was pretty similar in a lot of ways. I saw that we... For all my accounts that started before Thanksgiving, it was like bonus days, ROAS was really high, volume was really high and that carried... It dipped down a bit on Thanksgiving, which was strong, Black Friday peaked. And then we had a real difficult time pretty much across the board, like you guys were saying over the weekend.
And so in many of my ad accounts, I cut the budget way down over the weekend and then push what we had allocated for the weekend over to Monday and Tuesday. So we just shuffled that around. And then Monday, like everybody else said, it started real slow, people were emailing me questioning our budget choices for the day and whether things were going to work out and it just gradually peaked for me probably between seven and nine we just had a rush of sales come in, which was great to see, but like you guys had said it was hard to budget for that.
Interestingly, I was looking at some of the accounts where I had CBO-enabled for Cyber Monday and I saw that the spend actually mimiced that a bit. It was spending slower in the morning and in the evening, the spend had picked up. So that was good to see. Most of my accounts, I was running ABO though, but that was interesting to see because I didn't have much confidence in CBO overall either. I felt like I needed to have a few more leavers to pull to make sure that things went okay.
Andrew Foxwell: It's interesting on a CBO thing where it did actually, where I had it deployed, it did actually allocate the spend on prospecting better. That's another whole thing that prospecting generally has never done that great on this time of year and I woke up to 4 or 5X on prospecting in some cases, of 10% lookalikes or a 4% lookalike, in some cases it was like even with remarketing, which I found really surprising.
And also the other thing that I have to admit, just publicly, I've always liked a very low funnel cost per click bid at this time, and that didn't really do anything. I had one count that it actually beat out the auto, but everywhere else had on Friday, it was not as positive as just doing auto, which is really funny and is good that auto works. I don't really want to have to do a manual bid. I'd rather would just work. And it actually did in most cases. Even when you pushed volume, it did spend more to that group of people, which I thought it was good, but Paul, what do you think? I know you obviously a lot of your stuff's not even US-centric. What's your take on it?
Paul Fairbrothe: I think first of all, we should acknowledge the new holiday tradition that Facebook has started. The "Annual Facebook Heritage Day" every Thanksgiving.
Andrew Foxwell: That's very true. At least we had the chat support, status monitor, at least.
Paul Fairbrothe: Status monitor, which I didn't think we'd get to see in action so soon. Luckily being around is like predicting theme for months and telling my clients to book all their campaigns ahead. They actually thanked me afterwards when they realize that after the 23-hour outage last year and then the outage this year, that we're not just like [inaudible 00:13:20], you've actually got to get your campaigns.
When I saw the first ad campaigns for Black Friday on November 2 on a Sunday or something like that and say definitely things are moving only up, I will say for the first time, single state campaigns, not that many, but in the US and UK you have any of them single state that seems to be the new holiday creeping up with Cyber Monday being so late this year. So definitely a lot of the revenue was going earlier in the trading period there. I started most of my campaigns on Wednesday, started off really strong and just carried on and then died over the weekend a little bit.
Cyber Monday, not that much because we didn't really have any fresh campaign, just like you're on day five, day six of the same sales. They just faded a bit about there. I think starting early, that Wednesday and Thursday, it's like bonus days and so that that worked well since for instance, engagement audiences work really well this time, like a 90-day Instagram engagement audience. They're nice in between rather than just website visitors or completely cold traffic. They arein between.
And obviously segments down my dynamic product ad audiences. So really strong audience was 180 day Add to Carts and just running DPA ads to them. These people if they've added to cart, they want to buy but maybe they haven't bought because price is too high. So just skip them all up into DPA really worked. Second best one was the view content DPA, again 180 days, you know these super warm audiences, that's where you can use Dynamic Product Ads, works really well with them.
Andrew Foxwell: I had a hard time with Dynamic Product Ads in some cases. I would say in about 30 to 40% of the accounts they just weren't driving conversions, and I was wondering if it was there's latency or what, but I don't know if anybody else had that experience. I also had really good experience on the engagement... To comment on that engagement custom audience.
It created a lot of engagement lookalike audiences, they had a lot of Instagram stories running and we'd do a 50% Instagram story video view and a look alike off of that, which is like a random look alike obviously that I've started to test a little bit more, and that did well. Like more specific lookalikes, not just like an all purchaser lookalike.
All purchaser stuff did alright too. But I thought that was interesting because more of that stuff is owned by Facebook. It's not just pixel and website related. It's like you're you really have it there. Terry, any comments you want to make with being the headless one on here?
Terry Whalen: I basically, would just reiterate what everyone else has said so far. Definitely it was the right call to start early. I did have a good sized client who didn't want to start early. And I think that hurt us a little bit. We still grew like 80 or 90% year over year and Facebook grow ads was still roughly the same as it was a year ago and so everything was fine.
But I think this year definitely, it was a smart idea to start early because there's just no downside and especially when Black Friday's so late in the month. I agree with that. And then it's just tough to call on intraday budgets. It's just tough to do. And then everything was so much better the next day 48 hours later. And no matter how much you do this stuff professionally, it's still not easy on these big sale days. Just to acknowledge that and-
Andrew Foxwell: But overall you guys overall ROAS was okay, just to comment on that briefly, because I had a number of people contacting me saying, "Hey ROAS is down on Facebook and we're pushing more. Revenues are higher but we're not making as much money."
Terry Whalen: I would say that ROAS was lower but that was from the perspective of, say on Saturday morning looking at Friday and then comparing that to the year ago. That's not really apples to apples comparison, because there's still a lot of latency on that day and it's to maybe too early to even do that for yesterday, Cyber Monday. But yes, I would say for sure except that then when I would just look at longer periods of time, the ROAS wasn't that far off from a year ago's numbers and we were spending close to double what we had a year ago in most accounts if not more than double.
Andrew Foxwell: I think a lot of people would be glad to hear that, I didn't mean to cut you off. I do want to hear about what audiences worked for you too. But I think that's an important to point out because obviously latency has something to do with it. And there's a... I was talking yesterday with a colleague about when ROAS looks lower agencies will do sometimes funny things and some and...
I heard an example of somebody, Alex you were talking about earlier, uploading offline conversions. To me it seems a little sketchy personally, but I think people get creative and I think, Terry, what you're saying is it's just not that much different waiting for the latency because it's so much spend too. How many of these people are going to be introduced to the brand new converter over the holiday? A lot.
Terry Whalen: And I think that usually, at least for us marketers here on the call, for most of our clients and certainly for e-comm, Facebook, Instagram, that's the biggest pay channel by a really long shot. And so it's just not that it's such a big pay channel and that we all know it's just there's such a good cause and effect and we just know that it drives revenue.
So just continually checking against overall website-wide revenue and having a little bit of understanding about what emails are going out on certain days or times of days, not to put it in context, but anyways even when Facebook ROAS would be low, you're always looking at Shopify or whateve is your true north and then that helps you not lose your cool too much in terms of seeing these low ROAS numbers intraday.
Andrew Foxwell: Right. Alex, anybody else? Any comments on, on anything that we've been chatting about here?
Alex Afterman: Just referring to like the delayed attribution that came in. I want to count the spending, I think we spent... I wanted to spend like 80 or $90,000 on Sunday. The client was like, "We just can't do that with the numbers we're seeing." So we cut it back to 60 when I went to bed, the ROAS was 1.4 and I was thinking to myself like, "We're going to have to have a conversation about this tomorrow and this is going to be..." I think I even texted you about it over the weekend and when all of a sudden down at the end of the...
When I went to bed last night, the ROAS from Sunday was over 2. In my mind, I'm starting to reframe the weekend as, how our general holiday strategy is, fill the funnel before the big sale. You fill the funnel [inaudible] later, I feel like Saturday and Sunday this year was like a mini version of that. There was a huge buying frenzy through Friday and then Saturday and Sunday people are looking at deals, and then they're going to come back Monday to convert. And so I actually see that Sunday as a missed opportunity in not having spent more, but it's just a hard conversation to have when the numbers aren't there.
I didn't do a great job of setting expectations because I felt like last year was just strong all the way through. You know, maybe if I'd said something like think of Saturday and Sunday as another little mini fill of the funnel where we're looking less at ROAS because that will pay off. But that's also a gamble. It worked out in this account this time, but I cannot tell you I went to bed Sunday night thinking we're going to end up over a 2 today when it's all said and done. I feel like the decision making was harder than ever this year.
Andrew Foxwell: Yeah. Anybody comment on that?
Kurt Bullock: Quick comment I was looking at... I was seeing the same thing with DPA ads, really slow start. I pulled up the attribution like 1-day and 7-day attribution and looking right now it's close to 40-60 in terms of 1-day versus 7-day. I was having more sales come through after that first day on many of these, especially the DPA ads. And so it's interesting to take that into consideration.
Andrew Foxwell: What's everyone's take on a discussion point, technically speaking with dynamic creative or asset placement customization or dynamic headlines or anything. Anybody see anything there that was of particular note?
Deirdre Kelly: I would just say for the dynamic stuff, we definitely saw social proof even during the sale when you think the offers just strong enough that they'll click and not necessarily need to read through the comments to hear how great it is. But even when we switched to a stronger offer on Cyber Monday, we had to keep some of those top Black Friday ads on just because they had accumulated like thousands of likes and a lot of tags and everything.
So they were still bringing in a higher ROAS even though some of them had been live since Monday. So it was like seven days on, and you think it'd be fatigued considering the scale. So for us we weren't doing any asset placement, customization because you can't do that with the photo posts we do. We still do the bitly links and everything, it's those really old school ads then it's just geared for engagement and maximum real estate I guess.
And definitely as a user, all the news feeds and stories especially was just so bloated with ads. The ad load was higher than I've ever noticed it being it with my own ads like 10 times a day. I just think you need to be really careful, see who is really important for us. So just having our own native text overlays, IG stories and just anything you can do to not come across like too corporate and highly polished was really important.
And then on the other side for us, dynamic ads in terms of broad DPA especially. That was a huge area of scale for us. I think it was for 50% in some cases of our prospecting. So we did seek good [inaudible] and we did experiment with some overlays, like some 10% lookalike overlays, including at 10% lookalike of people who bought during this time last year. And it had a good row as that. I'm pretty clear in the end and that's still going, but I'm pretty sure that just the broad with no overnights is still winning out still is the best ROAS, so I did keep CBO on for that just to manage that a little bit.
Andrew Foxwell: Well I'll just say damn you that you can get broad match a to work so well that's not the case with a lot of people. I think a lot of it is because people's feeds aren't very good and there's a lot of errors, but that's awesome that they can work. And generally of course that lookalike of people that bought last year is good. And then the one that I'm sure all of you did this where you took the Thursday buyers and the Friday buyers and then made it as a lookalike through the weekend and that that does really well. And that's definitely something that we saw last year do well too, which is good.
We had a lot of separation of Instagram stories, which I was a little bit nervous about from a consolidation standpoint. You guys know I'm not like a major consolidation guy, but I wanted... I had some doing asset placement customization and that bombed, didn't work. So I did it on Instagram story separately and that and then it ended up working with the type of creative you're talking about Dierdre with stuff that looks UGC and with pores usually and stuff like that.
I do find it funny that the bigger the brand, the worse the ads. It's just hilarious. Some of these ads I saw from brands and like, "Why would I buy a fleece-lined flannel?" It's just it doesn't look like something I buy, the guys holding on to like a metal, like cooking pot. I'm like, "What are you even selling? Just weird stuff like that. That is always very surprising. I feel like the people that really make the best ads are a lot of these brands that are spending on your 70,000 a month US.
Deirdre Kelly: I think that's been a struggle when we have clients that scale up really quickly and bring on a brand director and a brand marketing team or creative art director. It's just they want everything to be so in line. I'm always the same fonts, always the same aesthetic and it's just not necessarily...
Not that it's just highly polished and looks like an ad from the getgo, but it's often just not eye-catching because they don't want to do anything tacky at all, which is typically what does well on Facebook. Just colors, red is great for sale and they just want to avoid all of that. And it's all about the pastels and like they have really filtered photos and it just doesn't cough.
Andrew Foxwell: That is true. Brand directors love pastels. We've talked a little bit about auto-bidding, we've talked about different audiences that people use. Anybody else? Terry, I think I cut you off previously at talking about audiences and that's my apologies. Did you want to talk about that briefly or anybody else have comments on the different audience splits in terms of remarketing that you had over this time period?
Terry Whalen: For audiences, just believe in everything but the kitchen sink, in terms of going back as far as you can with just website visitors or engaged users or any way you want to slice and dice all that stuff, add to cart, mute content. I would say I don't necessarily have a ton of new ad sets that I didn't already have running necessarily prior. I probably just have a couple of new ad sets for remarketing to website visitors or past purchasers or what have you.
And I don't segment out a lot. I do go back far because it's like, yes, if they showed any interest at all, we want to show them ads during Black Friday and this holiday period. But I don't do a ton of segmenting now, which I think is... I don't think I lose efficiency by not segmenting. I think it's all good. And then in terms of just other prospecting audiences, I basically ended up not tweaking those. I didn't expand my prospecting audiences and I didn't add to them and I didn't expand them. They were already fairly large audiences and I used CBO and I think CBO did a good job of allocating budget based on ROAS.
Andrew Foxwell: You didn't even change the ad itself.
Terry Whalen: The creative, I for sure changed. I'm talking about audiences.
Andrew Foxwell: Got it. You didn't pass a bat at all. Paul or Kurt, anything to say about audiences specifically?
Paul Fairbrothe: I mean obviously I advertised for [inaudible 00:30:13]. Certainly Australia was really strong, UK was good. Certainly basically non-US does a lot better over Black Friday, so that was quite interesting. Also, one of my, just like a random thing, but one of my clients that wasn't doing a Black Friday, so we put some specific ads out there saying, "Hey, we started at the same price. Wait for the socks. There isn't going to be one. We treat everybody fairly." And those ads did really well.
There's a lot of people just waiting to buy until Black Friday. I quite understand being to get the best deals. So if you did that then day that that's the best price all year round. But that can really help if you're one of these advertisers as well. Not everybody wants to to into the sales and if you don't, then find it out and you can get some extra sales from it.
Kurt Bullock: That's actually really interesting because I had a couple of of clients that didn't want to do sales and a couple of years ago I had a couple clients that didn't want to do sales and it did fine actually. In fact one of them did really, really well. I think it was like a high end men's clothing and we thought it was a status thing. Their customer doesn't want to deal, they want to pay more money because that makes them have higher status.
But this year the clients that didn't run deals really got hurt over the Black Friday weekend. But what I'm thinking about hearing that is... I told them, "Look, next year if you don't want to run a deal, let's just sit out the weekend let everybody else fight over that real estate." But I think my strategy or for next year would be, go heavy in that period in early November when everybody's complaining that nobody's buying because everybody's waiting for deals, which this whole, you're not going to get a deal from us message. We always have great pricing. And then sit it out on the weekends.
Andrew Foxwell: I think there's validity in doing that. I think it's really a test of what works for the brand, what's going to make sense for them and what's going to do that. What's interesting to me, because of where we sit now as Foxwell Digital, we get, in this time period, probably, over the weekend, like 200 inbound messages from different people from around the world, "What is this? Are you seeing this? Is this good?" And we're running our own stuff too.
And what's interesting, I think one of the common threads between it is people wondering about their numbers and about how they're going to present the numbers, either to themselves thinking about it or if they're an agency running it to their clients, and a lot of them were saying, "The ROAS looks worse than last year, so I'm going to start to pull out, blended. And I'm going to look at GA and I'm going to look at my Shopify numbers and I'm going to look at Facebook numbers."
I think we'd be remiss if we didn't talk about this. My feeling generally is if it helps to inform, that's good. However, I think that a lot, what you were getting to yesterday, Paul with your question in our secret group, a lot of people don't know their true numbers and so they're just looking at Facebook ROAS. When you enter into this conversation, how do you as an agency, as a buyer start to have that conversation?
Because I think it's easy as an agency to go and to just say things look good, your blended looks awesome and just let it roll and like hope that they figure it out. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do. I'm just saying, I think that's common. So how do you guys approach this? How do you start to have a conversation? Because I think a lot of people are sitting here today and they're saying, "The sales we're good. We're okay." But they're not necessarily having that conversation with their actual agents.
Kurt Bullock: So one other thing is we suspect possibly nobody really knows for sure that there's attribution issues with Facebook, with trackers and whatnot. It's a very tricky issue because you can't look at each channel individually and say, "Well, this channel drove these purchases and this channel driven these purchases" because a lot of them will claim the same purchase. So attribution has always been very tricky.
My attitude is if the client is happy with the overall business results and the Facebook numbers look satisfactory, that's a win. I'd love it if the Facebook numbers just crushed. I've actually had this, when the Facebook numbers just crushed the clients didn't make money. And that could be a lot of different things. We talked about margins, it could be very generous attribution on Facebook's part, which I think for a while that could have happened, but for me, my number one goal is the client is happy and is happy with the results in their business and then the Facebook numbers look good.
And if I missed a few sales in that Facebook attribution, but the client is ecstatic with how the sale went, then great. I think there's got to be better answers out there, there's got to be a better way to really siphon out the results. I don't use things like super metrics are wicked, so maybe they do that. But for me the bottom line is I want happy clients and if the client is happy with how things went and we don't see Facebook as a problem, that's a win for me.
Deirdre Kelly: For us, it was similar. We're definitely like Shopify, revenue was priority. So typically we were working out like a net sales as reported by Shopify versus marketing spend for us, and that would be our priority. And then there would also be a top line sales priority and then a distant target, which was more to instruct where we were allocating budget and the platform or if there was that room to push more aggressively. That was Facebook ROAS. It just wasn't something clients were concerned with.
So as long as those overall business results were pacing in line with the goals they had set, they were really happy and thankfully, we did hit all of those targets on the Facebook side, we talked about day to day things that's lower than I was used to, starting on Black Friday onwards. But then on the lookback things are strong. So Black Friday thankfully picked up a lot in the afternoon and evening, and same with Cyber Monday to smooth at that slower weekend numbers. In the end it was good on the Facebook side too, but had we gone off that we would have spent a lot less for sure we wouldn't have hit our targets.
Andrew Foxwell: I think it's always a matter of the balance of how aggressive do you want to be and what do you know for certain that's actually going to happen with attribution. Terry, go ahead.
Terry Whalen: I was just going to say that, just in checking the pixel for two of my accounts over that weekend, the pixel and Shopify, those were consistent, not looking at just a one-day but a seven-day chunk of time. Facebook pixel under-reports, maybe like say 3% to what Shopify says. And that's just checking the Facebook pixel events area. So to me, I think that Facebook slightly is under reporting but not by a lot. And otherwise I think Facebook does a really good job.
I think Facebook reporting is pretty darn accurate and if obviously we all, we'd definitely will check between view conversions versus click and different attribution windows, just as a sanity check from time to time. I still tell everyone who listen that the second you start looking at click based attribution systems like Google analytics for channel-specific data, paid channel-specific data, I just think you're, you're walking down the wrong road and you're likely to make mistakes because that click-based attribution data is just not good. It's not very good.
And then again, I think Facebook is the gorilla for a lot of our advertiser clients and Google is still in there. But again, if you look at Google ads, most of the conversions for most, at least e-comm advertisers, are brand related conversions, whether they're paid search brand or whether they are shopping and the queries are brand-related, and the queries may not be the parent brand, they might be queries that actually have the name of the actual product skew in the query. But that's still brand.
So we just run that super efficiently at very low CPAs, very high ROAS. And then Google, when you look at non-brand, either search or shopping, we're just running those again, basically trying to run those at par at parity with Facebook prospecting. So if we tend to run Facebook prospecting at a 2 or a 2.5 or something like that on a certain look back, then we will attempt to do about the same for Google non-brand will, not that those are exactly the same types of channels, but we'll run them roughly at parity.
Andrew Foxwell: Well, thank you everyone for joining me. I don't want to take too much of your time, but hopefully people can find this helpful. It'll be in the group. People can ask questions if they have followups off of this. And I will put all your information in there, but thank you and congratulations on finishing the race here, or marathon really now in a lot of cases for a lot of us. Thanks for joining me.
Kurt Bullock: Thank you. Appreciate it.